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Elane
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... Some of my kids spent their entire school years in portables of varying degrees of disrepair and one spent the last two years of her highschool in a school that was "under construction". My first school was actually a military quonset hut(the original school had been bombed but not reconstructed). Having said that, conditions in Northern Canada are not the same as conditions in the banana belt. Frost heaves, heavy loads of snow, dampness and general deterioration that one does find in the Northern climes of wood (I have seen entire buildings HEAVE from the frost heaves - ie: Dawson City YT). Trailers are not particularly built for 40 year useage. I have seen Indian Affairs (do they really still exist) "houses" rotted from the inside out as fixtures and doors sagged, jutted, sank because of the snow, the heaves, the cold .. GIVE THE KIDS A NEW SCHOOL. What is wrong with that??? NOW. There are extremes of weather, hot cold wet dry, in the North. Plus you got kids kids kids ... and those portables are not built for the North (not like the ones on the North Slope AK for the pipeline workers). I am going to add to this from my experience and I note on their website that no one seems to listen to them or if they do they don't take them seriously. I recall, long ago, Indian Affairs building the EXACT same homes in the Yukon for "the Indians" as they did on Vancouver Island. The Yukon "Indians" said "we want large one or two room homes with an outhouse X yards away. We want good wood burning stoves. We don't want gyprock walls. We don't really even want indoor plumbing. Give us wells and good strong pumps". Of course, this was not done and the usual SHIT houses were built. Those Indian Affairs houses DID not withstand the weather nor the conditions of the life style of the northern hunter "indian". The houses heaved with the frost and in the spring and summer the houses fell onto the plumbing pipes, the pipes exploded or seeped into the homes. Get the picture? The doors did not fit, the sinks and toilet did not work, sewage seeped into the homes - children, pregnant women, the elderly, the disabled were forced to live like that for years. And of course, everyone blamed "the Indians" ... "look at those savages - we give them houses, and LOOK what they do". |
Darcey
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... I've been on a lot of reserves where not many seem to give a crap about any future. How many people on reserves wear watches? This is quite different and interesting. Dino - from reports their old school was flooded with diesel from a broken generator I believe and successive IA Ministers promised them they would do something but it never happened. |
Richard
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... Is this not the responsibility of the band? What are the Chief and Elders doing about it? How does their lax generator/building maintenance become our responsibility? |
Scott Tribe
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... The band HAS no money to do this. I'll leave Cameron to explain better. If you're willing to read up on this, go to his original posting(s). As said over at Pogge's place, "This community has done everything "right". They negotiated, prepared plans, generally pushed hard through proper channels and avoided confrontation, activism or violence.And what did they get? Empty promises." |
Andrew Johnston
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... And it's doubtful that a Rona/HomeHardware/Home Depot store is just around the corner from the school. |
WL Mackenzie Redux
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... The missing $3 million (per year for 9 years) the Ontario chiefs sent to the non existent Poplar Point First Nation as their cut of the Casino Rama take would have paid for a great school for these Kids. Well there is no more worry of Native administrators hogging all the gold in the trough...every want will be met in the future as Dolton McSkidmark gives the native industry a cut of resource revenues. That said, I'm encouraged to see the attitude of these kids...it reflects the values in that reserve community toward worthwhile capital projects. Good schools and full attendance is an investment in the future and hope for ending the dependency cycle. |
Richard
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...The band HAS no money to do this. I'll leave Cameron to explain better. You've been misled. In the fiscal year ending March 31, 2007, the feds provided the following funding to the Attawapiskat First Nation: 7.9 million for community development, .3 million for economic development, 6.7 million for education, 1.3 million for Indian government support, .02 million for Indian registration, 1.6 million for social development Total = 17.9 million - That's just from IA. It gets better... CMHC kicked in .16 million, Health Canada kicked in .94 million and, Industry Canada kicked in .03 million Total = 19 million Where did the money go? Source: http://sdiprod2.inac.gc.ca/fnp...r=20062007 |
Richard
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... A link for your bookmarks Darcey dude: http://sdiprod2.inac.gc.ca/fnprofiles/FNProfiles_list.asp |
Cam Holmstrom
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... At Scott's urging, I'll try my best to put some clarity to this. First of all, those numbers that Richard is quoting is operational money, not infrastructure money, just like a school board has an operational budget and an infrastructure budget. The fact is that while the band gets an operational budget for education each year, it doesn't get an infrastructure budget each year because no one builds a new school every year. As it was said before, this was all started when the school had a spill of 50,000 litres of diesel fuel that contaminated the ground and the building, and that happened back in 1979, 29 years ago. The parents accepted that status quo until 2000 when the parents finally had enough and pulled their kids from the school. At that time, INAC stepped in with portables that weren't in the best of shape. Remember, this community is up on the James Bay coast, where it's Arctic like conditions for most of the winter. The fact is that to build a new school there, you'd be looking at needing around $20 million in funding to make it happen, that's something that they simply don't have and they would basically have to stop doing everything that the band needs to do to run the community in order to use those funds that Richard threw out there for a school. Where's the upside in stopping community and economic development for a year plus just to get the school built? What other community in the country is asked to do that? The fact is that three governments (2 Liberal and 1 Conservative) have made promises to this community for a new school, and it has yet to happen. That's simply not right. Personally, I don't expect to convince the majority of you commenting here about why the Government should be upholding it's treaty obligations and such, because it seems like more people commenting here are interested in playing the corruption card (not trying to offending, just making an observation). As it has been said elsewhere, this community has done this "the right way". They've negociated, they've lobbied, they haven't turned violent and haven't resorted to other actions. What message does this send to the youth of this community that doing things the right way doesn't get results. Even if you don't agree with the funding of Aboriginal communities, I'd hope that you'd agree with the principle of keeping one's word. Anyway, thanks for reading. |
Darcey
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... A man is only as good as his word - thanks for the comment A promise wasn't made though by anything I've read. http://media.knet.ca/node/4102 |
Cam Holmstrom
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... Darcey... the promise was made by three different INAC Ministers http://www.thestar.com/comment/article/467751 "Robert Nault was the first Indian affairs minister to promise a new school in 2000. Andy Scott repeated that pledge in 2005. And Jim Prentice assured the community last year he would seek funding for the school." |
Darcey
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... I seen that but I can't find any direct source to verify. You always need three sources. Am looking. |
OMMAG
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... $20 Million ... to build a school ..... yeah right. "Where's the upside in stopping community and economic development for a year plus just to get the school built? What other community in the country is asked to do that?" Building a school I would suggest IS community AND economic development. No freekin wonder INAC (who I regard as barely competent) isn't coughing up more money. Well ... maybe if they put it in a special suitcase MARKED "Infrastructure Money for New School" and provide a complete set of instructions ............... |
Chris Gordon
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... $20 million is a little high but the costs are roughly doubled the normal for construction in these remote areas. |
Cam Holmstrom
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... Actually OMMAG, I under estimated. The original approved plan for the school was for $30 million. Building a school isn't cheap, especially when you don't have roads to get things in. And of course, building in the North means needing to build for the conditions. No other community in this country is told they have to shut down all other economic development just to get a school built. |
Cam Holmstrom
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... And Darcey, here's confirmation of the most recent promise: http://www.wawataynews.ca/node/11277 After more than five years of waiting, Attawapiskat is getting a new school. November 17, 2005: Volume 32 #23 Timmins-James Bay MP Charlie Angus and MPP Gilles Bisson announced plans for the new school, Nov. 11, which will meet the standard of those built across the province. Indian and Northern Affairs Canada will fund the education facility. ?This is a terrific day for Attawapiskat,? said Chief Mike Carpenter. ?The students erupted with joy when I told them the news. We were all growing very frustrated.? |
Darcey
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... I spent 4 years in a First Nations department designing and shipping buildings over ice roads or flyin. The costs do double depending on global warming. I recall a Chief coming into a retail store and asking why the price of a sheet of drywall was 7 bucks or so compared to 15 in his community. Statement back was buy it here and bring it back up with you yourself. |
Cam Holmstrom
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... Here is the confirmation for 2005 http://www.wawataynews.ca/node/12539 "The people of Attawapiskat feel ?misled? and ?betrayed? after learning that Indian Affairs (INAC) would not fund the construction of a new elementary school for another five years. On Dec. 18, community leaders were informed by INAC informed that it would not fund Attawapiskat?s proposed $30-million school for another five years. In a press conference held Jan. 24, Mushkegowuk Grand Chief Stan Louttit said they feel ?betrayed? and ?lied to,? as INAC is breaking a promise made in 2005." |
Darcey
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...No other community in this country is told they have to shut down all other economic development just to get a school built. Dude your stretching it as that wasn't said. I see that a community close by lost their entire school to fire and money went into that. I support the cause man - I'd like to see these kids get a new school and I hope they do but sometimes things happen that are not planned and they have to be taken care of first according to need - and not want. |
Cam Holmstrom
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... Darcey... I was just responding to the suggestion that there is the money quoted above and that somehow that it should all go towards school construction. Wasn't trying to stretch anything. I do appreciate you taking this on, but I would say that while there was a school fire in another community, there are 80 communities waiting for either a school period or to replace a condemned school. This shouldn't have to be a case of, for the lack of a better term, robbing Peter to pay Paul. Anyway, I'm off, thanks again for the support. |
Elane
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... If a school is needed, a school is needed. Diesel fumes, molds, etc., are not healthy things for anyone at anytime, least of all for kids who have to spend 6 hours a day in that environment. But damn, can't another solution (other than $20 / $30 million) be worked out to at least temporarily resolve some of the more pressing issues? My grandmother was a prairie teacher - one room school marm, all grades, all seasons, except "farmin' time". Think outside the box. I realize that northern communities have limited resources but surely there are other options until The School can be and IS built? But that's just me. |
Darcey
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... Leslie is building a school I believe. I've built about 20 or so over the past few years. They cost cause you need all that safety stuff. In this case Elane Sayed they have temporary places but I understand from reports that they are also falling apart. |
Richard
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...At Scott's urging, I'll try my best to put some clarity to this. First of all, those numbers that Richard is quoting is operational money, not infrastructure money, just like a school board has an operational budget and an infrastructure budget. The fact is that while the band gets an operational budget for education each year, it doesn't get an infrastructure budget each year because no one builds a new school every year. You're full of it. Lets do some math: The school likely covers all grades and has a teacher for each. That equals 13 teachers. Add in the principle and the vp and 3 administrators just for shits and giggles. That puts it up to 18 staff. Lets be really generous and pay each member of that staff $70,000.00/year. 18 * 70,000.00 = $1,260,000. Lets be generous, again, and assume that their heating and electrical costs are 1 million dollars/year. In a community that size, 1600 people, there are probably about 200 students. Lets provide each of those students with $5,000 worth of school supplies (including brand new text books for every student in every grade). There's another million. Tally it up! 1,260,000 1,000,000 1,000,000 ---------- 3,260,000 Education funds provided to the community, by the taxpayer = 6.7 million 6,700,000 - 3,260,000 --------- 3,440,000 Where'd the rest of the money go? The community was provided 7.9 million for community development. Are you seriously asserting that the band has a community development department that swallowed up 7.9 million dollars in wages and overhead and with that, that none of their high priced help could manage to get a friggin' school built? Are you really that dumb? |
Richard
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...And Darcey, here's confirmation of the most recent promise: The link you provided doesn't provide any direct quote from either the MP or the MPP referenced in the article. Here is the confirmation for 2005 That link doesn't provide any direct quotes from I.A. either. It does give a number of students though... 400. I guess my estimate above will have to be trimmed to $2,500.00/student for school supplies. |
Leslie
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... I wouldn't be surprised to find the $20 million involved in part some kind of diesel related environmental assessment/cleaning something or other. And the safety stuff is huge. Building up north would have to make everything more expensive too... I'm not part of actually building a school, but we are setting one up. A process that, among other things, have left me questioning the deals INAC makes with the education system that enable school boards to screw the Indians. And then there are all the government restrictions that I can only assume are more strangling when you're dealing with the feds. You might be sitting on a pot full of money marked "community development" and not be allowed to allot it to this or that project. Richard -- you're forgetting benefits/retirement plans. A 5 year teacher might take in 70Gs but he's costing the district $100K or more...and that's only estimating at 5 years experience. Also, up north, it's often an expectation to pay a some sort of housing allowance to convince teachers to stay up there. I was buying textbooks the other day and for a school of 40, our Language Arts program costs over $15,000 retail. 40 kids, 1 subject. In my next life I'm going after the pillaging book publishers. Then, lets take a guess at how much it costs to GET the kids to school. Where does busing come in or do they all walk? $ub$titute teacher$? I don't see a janitor in there either come to think of it... |
Elane
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... What the hell, sort out the details later, start the lawsuits later, meanwhile, truth or lies, get these kids into SAFE, CLEAN, COMFORTABLE school so that they will be able to make the efforts to continue their education and CHANGE THEIR LIVES. These children are not responsible for ANY failures - yet - but they could be without education, dreams, hope, support and a decent place to BE the best they can be. Give 'em a damn school. |
Richard
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...Richard -- you're forgetting benefits/retirement plans. A 5 year teacher might take in 70Gs but he's costing the district $100K or more...and that's only estimating at 5 years experience. Also, up north, it's often an expectation to pay a some sort of housing allowance to convince teachers to stay up there. Do you really think all those teachers are getting paid 70K per year? Really? And the secretary? Do you really think she's at 70K/year too? Really? Why are their benefits and retirement the responsibility of the taxpayer? I was buying textbooks the other day and for a school of 40, our Language Arts program costs over $15,000 retail. Do you really think the government of Canada buys "retail"? Really? Are the books disposable? Do they get thrown away every year after the school shuts down for the summer? Your texts cost $375.00 each. Is it safe to assume that each student would have 5 text books every year? That's an average as the older students would have more and the younger students would have less. $375.00 * 5 = $1,875.00. Even with buying new texts for every student, every year, my estimate leaves over $600.00/student every year for pencils, pens, paper, binders and photocopies. Don't you find that just a little bit excessive? Then, lets take a guess at how much it costs to GET the kids to school. Where does busing come in or do they all walk? $ub$titute teacher$? I don't see a janitor in there either come to think of it... Ok, you caught me... busing, subs and the janitor probably make up the missing 3.4 million... Give your head a shake. It's a remote northern community. Have you ever been to one? Buses can't physically navigate the roads 75% of the time. They ride quads and ski-doos. If a teacher catches a cold and is down for a couple of days, do you really think they're going to fly a sub in from Toronto? Not so much! The other teachers will cover until the missing one comes back. Janitors don't cost 3.4 million dollars/year. |
Richard
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...Good points all, Richard. You are clearly more knowledgeable on this subject. I didn't have a clue about any of that stuff until I saw this post and started asking questions and chasing answers. Please forgive if I've sounded gruff. I didn't mean to be. My frustration comes from the fact that a large number of people are going to see the propaganda coming from Cam and the Toronto Star and they're going to buy it without any critical thought or research... |
Elane
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... all well and good, or not so good as the case may be, but it begs the question of WHERE are the kids going to go to school? ... in diesel fumes? might as well just get a paper bag, fill it with glue (sound familiar?) |
Leslie
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... No worries. And I can see your frustration. My only point is that there is the way things are and the way they should be. 7.9 million dollars is not an unbelievable number |